How do PPC experts manage their business? Do they make agreements or contracts with clients for better understanding? What is the biggest challenge on the business side of PPC? These were some of the questions host Julie F Bacchini sought answers for during this week’s PPCChat discussion.
Q1: How long have you been working in PPC? And are you/have you been agency, in-house or consultant/freelancer?
#agencylife as the ppc person for nearly 15yrs. @JuliaVyse
It’s been close to 15 years now. I’ve done all the above. Tech company as well. @TheMarketingAnu
I have been working in PPC since literally the beginning (and in marketing since before the internet!).I am a consultant and always have been. @NeptuneMoon
(do I need to put A1?) 21 years – since 2002! I started in-house and did that for 5 years then went agency side. Have also done consulting but not recently. @beyondthepaid
Been working in PPC for 8 years predominantly agency side. I did have a brief stint in higher education marketing for a UK uni but discovered it DEFINITELY wasn’t for me. @PPC_Fraser
Technically, 8 years (OMG). first 3 at Google as an account manager (sorry) and then past 5 as a solo consultant. I attempted a few other things on the side (winemaking/grad school) but this has been the bulk of my income for the past 5 years. @MicheleJaeger1
Marketing since 2008, PPC specifically only since 2016, I was in-house “Director of Special Projects” aka marketer jack of all trades for a few years before we started the agency. @gilgildner
Been in PPC for about 10 years, mostly agency-side, and consulting for the past 5 years. Started across all digital channels (social, search, display, video, audio) and now specialize predominantly in SEM and SEO. @teabeeshell
I’m in that 20+ camp. PPC affiliate to start. Later agency and in-house. @Galliguez
I started in SEO (worked at an agency), then in 2010 moved in-house and took over PPC, Display, and Affiliate as well. Initially I more oversaw things through our agency, but when covid hit we had to let all agencies go so I do it all myself now. @dan_patterson
Hi all! I just joined the channel. I’ve been doing PPC for 14 years, both in house and on the agency side. @semprund
I’ve been in PPC for over 15 years now and have been all of the above — agency, in-house, consultant/freelancer, big, little, lol. @revaminkoff
I have been marketing since 2019. I was a freelancer before as a full-stack developer and automation developer for funnel marketing. I did that for 7 years before I got into PPC. @ppcnitish
15 years and I’ve done it all (in-house, software, and agency). I’m a saas girl at heart, but I value my other experiences as well. @navahf
I’ve been in PPC for 5 years and began with an agency. I stayed with them for about a year before going back to customer service. In my second year of PPC I went out on my own and have been freelancing since then. Julian Phillip
Been 17 years since I got started. The last 7 years running an agency of sorts. @duanebrown
Off and on since 2012. I’m more in a director role now with less of the day-to-day. I’ve been in an agency, in-house, and now consulting. @EricHeiken
PPC since 2006. Agency and consulting mostly with a small in-house stint at the beginning. @robert_brady
Q2: Let’s start with contracts or agreements. Do you currently use contracts or agreements with your clients? If not, why not?
Oh HECK yeah! and we have a whole legal team to help us with it. @JuliaVyse
ABSOLUTELY 100% of the time YES. @NeptuneMoon
Yes, but usually clients have counsel that develop their contracts and we have to adapt. @gilgildner
100% yes. Very different at a small agency vs the holdco though. @beyondthepaid
Yes, I do. Mostly for legal reasons but practically, so far it’s been the best way for me to try to clarify scope from the beginning, as an attempt to avoid massive scope creep. I think it has helped, but I am still majorly struggling with boundaries/scope creep/knowing when to say no as a consultant. I find myself in a lot of grey areas, which I think might be more of a me problem… @MicheleJaeger1
Currently – no. but even when i was freelance, i dealt with contracting agencies. they dealt with the contracts, i only needed to deal with invoicing once a month. @TheMarketingAnu
Yes! Always! Not just from a legal perspective but also as a reference for expectations. @PPC_Fraser
Agreement (Master Services Agreement) with periodic SOWs and Change Orders. Most clients have legal that modifies the MSA as needed and the SOWs and COs are rarely touched, only signed.It’s a paper trail, but I’m not certain how legally enforceable they are. I’ve never had an issue go that far. @teabeeshell
Agreements/contracts both cover your butt and also clearly lay out expectations and terms (when done properly). @NeptuneMoon
Contracts and SOWs are so important. never word it vaguely, be clear about what is included. Yes, I”m in a discussion over this right now. @JuliaVyse
Yes, we’re using contracts with every client.@NeptuneMoon Shared some very helpful tips regarding contracts over Foxwell PPC discussion last week. Thanks for that. @ppcnitish
I have had to sue a client, so trust me when I say, read all contracts and be sure what is in them! @NeptuneMoon
We’re essentially at 150% on hours due to REASONS, but 50% on revenue from the pitch. and now they want more stuff that is technically in scope. Sirs, Madams and all clients everywhere: you cannot have what’s in the SOW if you consistently ask for more than we agreed to deliver. @JuliaVyse
Also, let me say here that if a client is ever giving you grief about signing a contract, take that as a major red flag. If they are worried about a particular aspect of the language, discuss it. I always stress that contracts protect both parties as the scope of work, price and other details are all clearly defined and agreed to by both parties. @NeptuneMoon
Contracts are safeguards for both the client and us. 10000% they are there! I will say I shifted my perspective from 6-month or annual to month-to-month. This is in large part due to how campaign types have shifted. @navahf
@navahf We are month-to-month for the vast majority of our clients as well. Some are annual.@gilgildner
I use a hybrid model @navahf with a commitment of 3 months after the discovery/strategy/initial implementation part is complete and then month to month after that. @NeptuneMoon
Super interesting around SOW and Good and bad clients. Bit of a plug but Kirk’s (Williams of course!) ‘Stop the scale’ outlines really well some practical approaches to stop scope of work getting out of hand. @PPC_Fraser
We stick to annual with 30 day out clauses on both sides. The diff comes down to retainer +% or hourly. There are good and bad versions of each. @JuliaVyse
Kirk’s book is essential. @gilgildner
We use an initial 3-month contract and after that, it transitions to monthly. @ppcnitish
I think the other factor is whether we’re percentage of spend or flat rate lead/management fee. I find that clients who go lead-based/performance-based need more timelines in place in the contract because they get temperamental. general management there tends to be more trust. @navahf
We have a proposal (SOW) and contract as one doc. We use Proposify to get everything digitally signed. Been using it since 2019 and it works well for clients of all sizes. @duanebrown
My most lucrative contracts so far have been verbal, but I have much to learn about this stuff. Curious to see what others have been doing! Julian Phillip
I know some who don’t use one. Those few times clients questioned what we did or didn’t do and I just pointed to the proposal/SOW. a couple of years ago one client wanted to shove the contract terms in our face… even when they didn’t read it. Then two weeks claim they are unsure about if we did something because unsure of the very contract they had access to. You can not make this stuff up. Better to get it in writing. As @NeptuneMoon said, not wanting to sign one is a big red flag. Good agency’s peeps are not pieces you can just change out and everything will be fine. @duanebrown
I tend to work with smaller, more personal businesses where major contract legalese isn’t what either party cares for. Sure, it exposes me to more risk, but from a legal standpoint, agreement emails with terms are legally binding, just not as air-tight. @EricHeiken
I always have a contract/agreement in place, signed by both parties. Helps to clarify the payment, terms, and scope. It’s a rolling month-to-month so I’m not locking anyone into a long-term deal. @robert_brady
Q3: Is there anything in your contract that is there because you learned something the hard way? If so, what is it?
I learned to spell out the exact meeting and reporting cadence. Otherwise, your smallest clients will demand the biggest chunk of your time. @beyondthepaid
Account build fees – I used to build campaigns as part of the core, engagement, but I found that folks who pay for the build are more invested and buy into the process more than those who get it for free. @navahf
Yes actually! but it’s a pretty corporate example. We need credit protection ins. for clients because we buy all media and then bill it + fees. So if they are not credit-worthy, all platforms have to bill them directly. @JuliaVyse
@beyondthepaid yes!!!!!! I don’t put it in the contract, but it’s in the discovery emails. @navahf
@navahf yes! those build fees need to be identified and billed separately! @JuliaVyse
The two biggest things I’ve learned are:
- Clause that indicates all work product is the property of Client (campaigns, payment profiles, data, research)
- Clause that mandates that work product may be used (with approval in final form) to promote my business
The former satisfies clients that they own the work, plain and simple. They pay, and XYZ output is theirs. The latter allows for self-promotion, earning future work, and creates a symbiosis that’s healthy, in my experience. @teabeeshell
No, in our experience we have found that we are better served by pre-qualifying clients than spending too much time enforcing things. Of course, things always slip through the cracks, but we try to keep things as open and easy as possible. Since we’re month-to-month with the vast majority of clients, we have never had issues. Granted, most of our clients are smaller (think <$2m/year spend) so they are usually pretty flexible with things. Almost everything is in writing in some way or the other, however. @gilgildner
Normally things like 3-month clause – if things aren’t working well from the offset it allows both parties to leave and typically is a good way to keep things relatively amicable. @PPC_Fraser
I include call cadence! And also expectations around conversion tracking troubleshooting/etc. @MicheleJaeger1
Pre-qualification is something that NOWHERE NEAR enough agencies are doing but totally should. @PPC_Fraser
@teabeeshell I’m jealous. specific brand permission needed for every blog post, award submission, and conf. @JuliaVyse
Prequalify = stress-free contracts. @navahf
Level of communication that is included – we have all had a client who wants to email, talk, etc. WAY too much for what they are paying.My working hours and time zone.An exclusions section about what is NOT included. @NeptuneMoon
24-hour response times (in the working week) are a nice way to ensure that clients don’t bombard you with messages. This response can even just be an acknowledgement of receiving the message but it helps to stop clients and employees feeling the need to be ‘on it’ at all times. @PPC_Fraser
Make sure you put in there your billing terms too. Are invoices due upon receipt? Are they due within 30 days? And what happens if they are late? Lots of things in contracts are there for worst-case scenario. And just because it is in there does not mean you have to enforce it. You can certainly tell a client that you’re waiving the fee that is in the contract for late payment, etc. But it is there if you need to enforce it. @NeptuneMoon
Same re confirming receipt. NOT saying I’ll drop everything and do this now. @beyondthepaid
We have a list of our responsibilities and their responsibilities – glad we have that so it’s clear that they need to pay their bills with the engines, give us assets, etc.@revaminkoff
I have turnaround times specified too. @NeptuneMoon
I love a work-back schedule with our deliverables, their deliverables, creative deliverables, and Google/Microsoft deliverables…chefs kiss @JuliaVyse
Yes, @revaminkoff I have a section outlining client responsibilities too. Like “timely approval” of things. @NeptuneMoon
If I look back at 2019 vs now. Way more detail and sometimes repeating things a few times. Comms has gotten a couple of updates to make it more clear we don’t do weekly meetings that are often a waste of time for clients of X size. @duanebrown
Not from a PPC standpoint, but if I take on any web dev job, I’m writing an expiry period into my agreements moving forward. I’ve agreed to redo a friend’s business’s website for $X flat. It’s been probably 3 years. I have the full payment but he stopped providing assets to complete the job, so it sits there as a liability to me that I have yet to make good on. @EricHeiken
Q4: What is your biggest challenge on the business side of PPC?
Hiring @gilgildner
I’ll second that. A very time-intensive process that I do not enjoy! @ppcnitish
Finding new clients. My first client is an agency and I manage a number of accounts thru them. However, the time has come where I need to attract new clients and I feel out of practice. Julian Phillip
Expectations. I am great at what I do and I lead a great team. We are NOT wizards, and can’t force Google to do things it won’t do. Clients tend to be unrealistic about my limitations, how much their budgets can afford, and partners like Google can be unrealistic about how much budgets my clients actually have. @JuliaVyse
Inevitably, PPC is like a spool of yarn that unravels. It uncovers creative- and query-level insights that make clients go, “Hmmm, I need to address that.”The resulting scope creep, and getting clients to pay for it, is the biggest challenge for me. @teabeeshell
People not paying their invoices. Or even not on time and pretending they have no idea. @TheMarketingAnu
Pricing — what clients can realistically and actually afford to pay versus all the various costs involved, etc. @revaminkoff
Managing expectations I think is always one. A huge part of tackling that is cross-training teams to understand what is and isn’t acceptable. Also, pricing can often be an ongoing issue – it takes a lot to say, ‘We’ve built this pricing for a reason and can’t go lower’ – of course, there’s some room for movement but clients asking for 50% off is a huge red flag. @PPC_Fraser
To Gil’s point – charge up front and don’t do work till it’s paid. I lost roughly $15K because of trust in the decency of human beings – never again @navahf
We charge up front for every client. Even our annual clients pay in one lump annual sum, upfront. @gilgildner
Prior to that, getting checks in a timely manner was challenging about 50% of the time for ongoing clients. @NeptuneMoon
businesses have to pay. it doesn’t have to be emotional or dramatic. Here’s the bill. here are the payment terms. if you need relief we’ll have a discussion and move on from there. @JuliaVyse
Always get paid at least some of the money upfront. And do not let them get too far into you if they are slow payers. We can’t repossess our work, so make sure you’re staying in pace with a client’s payments. And if they start out great and then get slow, address it in the first month! @NeptuneMoon
Contract needs to be signed and the invoice paid before any work gets started. Also every step of onboarding needs to be done before we start working. @ppcnitish
Helping Clients understand whether they are in fact the right fit for PPC. I see a lot of folks swindled into smaller budgets that are not going to do anything (not knocking great account management of smaller accounts – I just find it’s more common that smaller budget accounts struggle here the most). I talk more people out of running Google ads nowadays than I do empowering them to leverage it because of auction prices and creative requirements. @navahf
Honest question for those of you that are in agencies or fly solo: with all the bid strategies and other services available in Google, is it harder to justify your services these days? Or do you mainly focus on consulting, working for companies that don’t have an internal team, etc? Something I’ve been wondering about for a while now…@dan_patterson
For initial work, I charge 50% upfront, then amortize the rest of the bill over the remaining duration of work together. It requires both parties “leaning in” and serves well for longer-term agreements. @teabeeshell
Smaller budget accounts are in trouble. Search ads are a very mature ecosystem now and that means it is pricing out smaller advertisers. Which is what @navahf was talking about up thread on with helping clients determine if search ads are even right for them today. @NeptuneMoon
Also super passionate about spend efficiency. It’s our job to fight back and in Wil Reynolds’ words ‘stop Google taking more of our client’s money’ @PPC_Fraser
I had a client ask me to manage their LSA and they are really clever and tuned into how things work. Instead of charging them a management fee, I sold them a build and three hours of consulting time to see if they could do it themselves instead of paying a monthly retainer. @navahf
Let’s not forget the influence we can have in the post-click part of the equation too. Historically, I know many have been pretty hands-off, but I think that is a smart place to build skills right now. @NeptuneMoon
in the long run, that’s a brand advocate for me and they’ll be able to invest the fee in their business and grow. @navahf
I think it’s especially important that we tackle the whole business, or at least look at the big picture/help the client look at the big picture. A great front-end performing campaign in isolation doesn’t necessarily mean good business results. @revaminkoff
I was on a site today, pretty much ready to purchase and I had a question. Opened the chat box and I could not submit a question without providing my email to sign up for their newsletter. This kind of stuff is where we can make big differences in clients’ bottom lines too! @NeptuneMoon
Scope creep. I can do a lot of things outside of PPC and clients starting asking for additional work once they know what I’m able to do. Happy to do it with a new SOW and increased retainer in place. @Austin_Dillman
Q5: Do you have a business of PPC questions vexing you right now? Maybe we can help!
I want to help everyone and I know I can’t and it makes me sad. @navahf
Not really a question, just a vexing mechanic. @navahf
Yes, but it’s one particular client. I don’t think y’all can help with that, but I appreciate cheers and well wishes. @JuliaVyse
What vexes me is the poor association with price vs. value among businesses.No one disagrees with the price of an apple. It’s ~$1.50/lb, and we pay that, no questions asked. When a mechanic says, “It costs X for the part, Y for the labour” we pay the invoice. When it comes to online services, people are far less “seasoned.” Clients come to the table feeling like it’s a negotiation, and I don’t yet have a complete solution for that. @teabeeshell
How do you charge? Flat rate? @gilgildner
@gilgildner I fully scope out services at an hourly rate. Then 50% upfront, the rest spread evenly over the duration of work. I try to be as blatantly transparent as possible. @teabeeshell
Hourly is a really difficult model unless you’re a holdco. @gilgildner
Maybe you all can help me – I have some consulting clients who use another ppc vendor to manage their accounts and they do so many bad things (don’t let my client own their GA4 and ad account, no negatives, almost all broad, search with display select…) How do I help my client? They know they could fire the agency but they don’t. Also, the agency manages the SEO. I was gobsmacked at how much my client pays them (18% management fee to do essentially nothing) @navahf
@navahf I think all you can do in that scenario is tactfully point out the issues whenever they are relevant to what you’re discussing with them. You can lead a horse to water…@NeptuneMoon
@navahf Perhaps you expose them to how much freedom you offer. “With me, you own 100% of what you should. GA4 is yours. SEO work product, you own. Here’s a 3rd party source/article that validates what I’m saying so you can hear it elsewhere. I want to extend that freedom to the business.”@teabeeshell
I am wondering how often people re-negotiate contracts with clients. I have several clients who have grown pretty significantly under my watch (like 5-20x’d ad spend/return/etc), and the work is a lot more/my responsibilities greater/etc, and I want to start having contract re-negotiations built into my processes. How do others approach this? @MicheleJaeger1
@MicheleJaeger1 Consider letting them know that you have them on a legacy plan and you want to keep working with them but need to move them onto a different plan. However, as a thank you for their loyalty, you’ll discount the new plan (even if it’s an upsell on where they are now) @navahf
@MicheleJaeger1 I like to review regularly – doesn’t need to be each year, just a good cadence – and share new platforms, complexity changes, hours needed to do new asks. It can be a very positive conversation.@JuliaVyse
@MicheleJaeger1 Build it in to have a yearly conversation with ongoing clients about the scope of what you’re doing for them. You can even position it along the lines of “let’s make sure we have this set up in the most efficient way possible”. @NeptuneMoon
We went 100% flat rate retainer model (tiered based on ad spend). It’s much easier and lets us bill totally upfront. @gilgildner
Ideas around how to approach completely cold clients are always welcome! @PPC_Fraser
There is an annoyingly persistent perception that things on or related to the internet should be cheap. I think the best way I have found to handle this is by saying “I am not the least expensive provider out there. If that is your number one priority, I’m probably not the consultant for you.” Because, if they don’t inherently see or understand the value in what I bring to the table, they will never be satisfied and who needs that in their life? @NeptuneMoon
Kirk put this in a great way re hourly rate: you’re not paying for how much time it takes me, you’re paying for how well I can get it done as quickly as possible. @navahf
My single most important tip: charge more, the more you charge the less fuss anyone has about the price. PPC experts are rarer than y’all think. @gilgildner
To be clear – I don’t want to take the business away from the vendor – if anything I want them to pay their team more and grow their current staff. @navahf
We sometimes do climate meetings to ensure we’re on track, communicating well, and to create room to change/grow the relationship where needed. @JuliaVyse
@teabeeshell Interesting take on hours. I like your thinking. We took on one hourly brand last year as they really wanted to work with us. I just had to charge a high rate to make it worthwhile for the work, which was 30% higher than the two closest competitors pitching. I still don’t love hours but you got charge for it as you said.@duanebrown
The bottom line is how your price and position things in your agreements really comes down to how well it works for you and your situation too. As with everything PPC – there really is not just one way to do anything! @NeptuneMoon
If you are making money and are profiting with how this year is going… you are doing a good job I say. @duanebrown
PPCChat Participants
- Julia Vyse @JuliaVyse
- Anu Adegbola aka PPC Live UK founder @TheMarketingAnu
- Julie F Bacchini @NeptuneMoon
- Melissa L Mackey @beyondthepaid
- Fraser Andrews @PPC_Fraser
- Michele Jaeger @MicheleJaeger1
- Gil Gildner @gilgildner
- Travis @teabeeshell
- Dave Galliguez @Galliguez
- Dan Patterson @dan_patterson
- David Semprun @semprund
- Reva Minkoff @revaminkoff
- Nitish Dhir @ppcnitish
- Navah Hopkins @navahf
- Duane Brown @duanebrown
- Eric Heiken @EricHeiken
- Robert Brady @robert_brady
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